Discussion:
licensing and CLA
Zach Welch
2003-08-15 04:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

Here are some brief and jumbled thoughts I wanted to share, after the
initial (and mostly negative) responses to the idea of dual-licensing
and CLAs. If the rest are silent supporters, that's great, but I'd love
to actually hear you help me make the case - or simply voice your support.

For those of you waiting for development to happen, that's at the top of
my list and we will have something soon. Graham and I have been making
progress on gathering the full requirements for Repoteus, but this
message popped out in between my hacking and IRC chats.

* Ideally, I wish all the software could be free software. Even if such
becomes the reality, the cost of developing that software will never be
free, and development organizations will always need to derive revenue
somehow.

* A non-profit can be run like a business, just the revenues go
exclusively to further the cause, not help line shareholders pockets.
This foundation will be driven like a business; its business plan will
be continually update with all of the traditional aspects used to drive
an organization forward.


* Any relicensing would take place in the future, could be required to
be voted upon by the community of members. I do not want the foundation
to be able to arbitrarily relicense the technology I help develop for it
any more than I expect others would want that to happen.

* I also own a embedded Linux consultancy. I want to be able to say
that non-GPL is an option - and that is an option for those works that I
create by myself from scratch and without outside contributions.

* For Zynot technology, I would happily arrange to pay a per-unit
royalty (or just regular wads of cash) if a client insisted for non-GPL
terms. This is not an unreasonable scenario for an embedded OS vendor,
though one I would fight against (and would turn down if enough pure
open source contracts were available).

* Such terms would be approved by the membership when that day comes.
Such would be above and beyond licensing of our yet to be developed
brand name and image.

* While the reality of business is that other licenses are viable (even
those labeled as "closed"), the foundation will only fund the
development of open source software. Non-GPL is only a licensing option
that gives us revenue, support would obviously be only under the GPL.


* The ability to relicense under non-GPL terms is only one reason for
using a CLA; it also provides a means for accountability with regard to
IP disputes, either with closed use of GPL or with contributions with
submarine patents.

* I do not believe that having a free-for-all copyright scheme (which is
what you have without CLAs) is either prudent or acceptable for a
business to operate. Such scattered control prevents the code from ever
being re-used in non-GPL contexts.

* The recent SCO lawsuit serves as a sign that we ally ourselves though
such community organizations such as Zynot, providing united
accountability of our actions. The CLA serves as this foundation for
better protecting the community.

* There has been an annoying trend of certain embedded device vendors
not immediately providing source code for products that obviously
contain GPL source code. While many cases get resolved amicably, the
foundation should be empowered to protect that works derived from Zynot
remain open.

* Hypothetically speaking: If re-licensing were taken out of
consideration (i.e. Zynot is GPL-only), would I still want CLAs?
Absolutely, as the language goes beyond the realm of licensing; however,
the title becomes conspicuously inappropriate.


* I've heard rumors that rewording of the CLA might be happening soon,
from which Zynot could benefit. I am not in a hurry to see these
signed, as the terms do specify all past contributions.

* I am trying to convey what I perceive as a real need for the
organization, bearing in mind that I personally feel this is the right
thing to do for open source in the long term.

I hope these spark more pointed lines of conversation that can help us
move these topics along to some sort of conclusion.

Cheers,

Zach
Mark Gordon
2003-08-15 07:25:45 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:08:58 -0700
Post by Zach Welch
Hi all,
Here are some brief and jumbled thoughts I wanted to share, after the
initial (and mostly negative) responses to the idea of dual-licensing
and CLAs. If the rest are silent supporters, that's great, but I'd
love to actually hear you help me make the case - or simply voice your
support.
For those of you waiting for development to happen, that's at the top
of my list and we will have something soon. Graham and I have been
making progress on gathering the full requirements for Repoteus, but
this message popped out in between my hacking and IRC chats.
* Ideally, I wish all the software could be free software. Even if
such becomes the reality, the cost of developing that software will
never be free, and development organizations will always need to
derive revenue somehow.
Definitely, otherwise I won't get paid for doing what I enjoy and would
have to find a real job instead. :-)
Post by Zach Welch
* A non-profit can be run like a business, just the revenues go
exclusively to further the cause, not help line shareholders pockets.
This foundation will be driven like a business; its business plan will
be continually update with all of the traditional aspects used to
drive an organization forward.
I agree with you. Also, like any other organisation it should try to
always have a cash float available.
Post by Zach Welch
* Any relicensing would take place in the future, could be required to
be voted upon by the community of members. I do not want the
foundation to be able to arbitrarily relicense the technology I help
develop for it any more than I expect others would want that to
happen.
* I also own a embedded Linux consultancy. I want to be able to say
that non-GPL is an option - and that is an option for those works that
I create by myself from scratch and without outside contributions.
No problem as far as I am concerned.
Post by Zach Welch
* For Zynot technology, I would happily arrange to pay a per-unit
royalty (or just regular wads of cash) if a client insisted for
non-GPL terms. This is not an unreasonable scenario for an embedded
OS vendor, though one I would fight against (and would turn down if
enough pure open source contracts were available).
* Such terms would be approved by the membership when that day comes.
Such would be above and beyond licensing of our yet to be developed
brand name and image.
I think this is the big thing.

ISTR people talking about not including the "or later versions of the
GPL" bit of the GPL license, however it was worded. I raise this because
it is related. *ANY* change to the licencing, whether providing a
non-GPL licenced version or changing from GPL version 2 to a later
version of the GPL should require the approval of the membership,
although the board should fell free to *recommend* such changes.
Post by Zach Welch
* While the reality of business is that other licenses are viable
(even those labeled as "closed"), the foundation will only fund the
development of open source software. Non-GPL is only a licensing
option that gives us revenue, support would obviously be only under
the GPL.
Any non-GPL license should be worded so as to give Zynot as much freedom
as possible. Maybe a clause saying something along the lines of,
"purchasing this license does not grant the right to exclude others from
developing similar changes and enhancements to the software to any
changes that you make." Just to make it clear that if close sourced
company X develops a closed source enhancement they can't sue us if we
develop something similar. I am not a lawyer, so consider the idea
rather than the specific wording.
Post by Zach Welch
* The ability to relicense under non-GPL terms is only one reason for
using a CLA; it also provides a means for accountability with regard
to IP disputes, either with closed use of GPL or with contributions
with submarine patents.
* I do not believe that having a free-for-all copyright scheme (which
is what you have without CLAs) is either prudent or acceptable for a
business to operate. Such scattered control prevents the code from
ever being re-used in non-GPL contexts.
I agree with you in principal. I've not read the CLA yet so I can't
comment on the specifics.
Post by Zach Welch
* The recent SCO lawsuit serves as a sign that we ally ourselves
though such community organizations such as Zynot, providing united
accountability of our actions. The CLA serves as this foundation for
better protecting the community.
Agreed.
Post by Zach Welch
* There has been an annoying trend of certain embedded device vendors
not immediately providing source code for products that obviously
contain GPL source code. While many cases get resolved amicably, the
foundation should be empowered to protect that works derived from
Zynot remain open.
Agreed.
Post by Zach Welch
* Hypothetically speaking: If re-licensing were taken out of
consideration (i.e. Zynot is GPL-only), would I still want CLAs?
Absolutely, as the language goes beyond the realm of licensing;
however, the title becomes conspicuously inappropriate.
I agree that a CLA is good even for a pure open source product. It
clarifies the relationship and means you have bits of paper for lawyers
to play with if anyone outside the organisation gets awkward. Without
that, someone outside could try claiming that Zynaut did not own the
code it was trying to protect and that it was therefor up to the
individual authors. I'm not saying any such claim would be right, but it
does help preempt any such attempt.
Post by Zach Welch
* I've heard rumors that rewording of the CLA might be happening soon,
from which Zynot could benefit. I am not in a hurry to see these
signed, as the terms do specify all past contributions.
* I am trying to convey what I perceive as a real need for the
organization, bearing in mind that I personally feel this is the right
thing to do for open source in the long term.
I hope these spark more pointed lines of conversation that can help us
move these topics along to some sort of conclusion.
Well, I found time to respond this time round anyway. :-)
--
Mark Gordon
Paid to be a geek and software developer.
Sidoine Mosiah PIERREL
2003-08-15 10:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zach Welch
Hi all,
Here are some brief and jumbled thoughts I wanted to share, after the
initial (and mostly negative) responses to the idea of dual-licensing
and CLAs. If the rest are silent supporters, that's great, but I'd love
to actually hear you help me make the case - or simply voice your support.
I have responses from French people who tell me they won't participate only
because of dual licensing. They are not so far way not to tell them that
there are reasons for that
Post by Zach Welch
[...]
* Ideally, I wish all the software could be free software. Even if such
becomes the reality, the cost of developing that software will never be
free, and development organizations will always need to derive revenue
somehow.
* A non-profit can be run like a business, just the revenues go
exclusively to further the cause, not help line shareholders pockets.
This foundation will be driven like a business; its business plan will
be continually update with all of the traditional aspects used to drive
an organization forward.
Until now, I agree with you.
Post by Zach Welch
* Any relicensing would take place in the future, could be required to
be voted upon by the community of members. I do not want the foundation
to be able to arbitrarily relicense the technology I help develop for it
any more than I expect others would want that to happen.
It should be great to tell it correctly or we will lose value guys. I think
that it is important to give enough power to the foundation and the community
to drive its ouwn business accordingly to the evolution of the time, the
economy and the technology. But, like many contributers, I can't accept my
job to be sold, licensed differently from what I wanted without my prior
permission.
Post by Zach Welch
* I also own a embedded Linux consultancy. I want to be able to say
that non-GPL is an option - and that is an option for those works that I
create by myself from scratch and without outside contributions.
* For Zynot technology, I would happily arrange to pay a per-unit
royalty (or just regular wads of cash) if a client insisted for non-GPL
terms. This is not an unreasonable scenario for an embedded OS vendor,
though one I would fight against (and would turn down if enough pure
open source contracts were available).
Explained like that, why not. This is the pattern of TrollTech (Norway). The
QT stuff is under GPL for Linux, non-GPL for Mac and Windows and Linux if
asked. But under Linux all their first job is GPL.
Post by Zach Welch
* Such terms would be approved by the membership when that day comes.
Such would be above and beyond licensing of our yet to be developed
brand name and image.
* While the reality of business is that other licenses are viable (even
those labeled as "closed"), the foundation will only fund the
development of open source software. Non-GPL is only a licensing option
that gives us revenue, support would obviously be only under the GPL.
Tell it lowder please! I agree with you and I agree with this plan. And I
support it.
Post by Zach Welch
* The ability to relicense under non-GPL terms is only one reason for
using a CLA; it also provides a means for accountability with regard to
IP disputes, either with closed use of GPL or with contributions with
submarine patents.
Sorry, what is CLA?
Post by Zach Welch
* I do not believe that having a free-for-all copyright scheme (which is
what you have without CLAs) is either prudent or acceptable for a
business to operate. Such scattered control prevents the code from ever
being re-used in non-GPL contexts.
* The recent SCO lawsuit serves as a sign that we ally ourselves though
such community organizations such as Zynot, providing united
accountability of our actions. The CLA serves as this foundation for
better protecting the community.
* There has been an annoying trend of certain embedded device vendors
not immediately providing source code for products that obviously
contain GPL source code. While many cases get resolved amicably, the
foundation should be empowered to protect that works derived from Zynot
remain open.
* Hypothetically speaking: If re-licensing were taken out of
consideration (i.e. Zynot is GPL-only), would I still want CLAs?
Absolutely, as the language goes beyond the realm of licensing; however,
the title becomes conspicuously inappropriate.
* I've heard rumors that rewording of the CLA might be happening soon,
from which Zynot could benefit. I am not in a hurry to see these
signed, as the terms do specify all past contributions.
* I am trying to convey what I perceive as a real need for the
organization, bearing in mind that I personally feel this is the right
thing to do for open source in the long term.
I hope these spark more pointed lines of conversation that can help us
move these topics along to some sort of conclusion.
Cheers,
Zach
--
LINUX BUSINESS UNIT
http://www.teamlog.com
(+33) 476 613 709 / (+33) 680 587 187
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